After months of chaos under Trump’s second term, a shocking Senate hearing exposes how HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has politicized the CDC—firing scientists, silencing evidence, and demanding blind approval of vaccine changes. This episode dives into testimony from former CDC leaders and the rare moment of bipartisan oversight that could mark a turning point for accountability in Congress.
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Background Sources
Aaron Siri
“How the Corruption of Science has Impacted Public Perception and Policies Regarding Vaccines.” September 9, 2025. Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs.
“Re: Hearing Titled, How the Corruption of Science has Impacted Public Perception and Policies Regarding Vaccines.” Aaron Siri. September 5, 2025. Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs.
“Anti-vaccine group with ties to RFK Jr. saw another windfall last year, records show.” Brandy Zadrozny. December 23, 2024. NBC News.
“Kennedy’s Lawyer Has Asked the F.D.A. to Revoke Approval of the Polio Vaccine.” Christina Jewett and Sheryl Gay Stolberg. December 13, 2024. The New York Times.
“Petition for administrative action to require clinical trial of IPOL to assess the safety of this product.” Aaron Siri et al. Informed Consent Action Network.
ACIP Committee
“Sept ACIP Meeting Fact Checking (Days 1-2).” Marisa Donnelly et al. The Evidence Collective.
“Trump’s fraying alliance with RFK Jr.” Robert Kuttner. September 17, 2025. The American Prospect.
“Insurance trade group says COVID, flu vaccines covered through 2026.” Stephanie Soucheray. September 17, 2025. CIDRAP.
“HHS names 5 new members to CDC vaccine advisory board.” Chris Dall. September 15, 2025. CIDRAP.
“Nine former CDC directors issue dire warning over Kennedy actions.” Lisa Schnirring. September 2, 2025. CIDRAP.
“RFK announces new ACIP members, including vaccine critics.” Lisa Schnirring and Mary Van Beusekom. June 12, 2025. CIDRAP.
“RFK Jr. ousts entire CDC vaccine advisory committee.” Laura Ungar and Amanda Seitz. June 9, 2025. AP News.
Letter from Previous CDC Directors
“We Ran the C.D.C.: Kennedy Is Endangering Every American’s Health.” Richard Besser et al. September 1, 2025. The New York Times.
Audio Sources
Restoring Trust Through Radical Transparency: Reviewing Recent Events at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and Implications for Children’s Health
Senate Health, Education, Labor, & Pensions Committee
September 17, 2025
Witnesses:
- Susan Monarez, Ph.D., Former Director, U.S. Centers for Disease Control
- Debra Houry, MD., M.P.H., Former Chief Medical Officer, U.S. Centers for Disease Control
Clips
20:05 Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
As a doctor who treated children and families for over 25 years, I have the absolute obligation to do the best I can for the health of those whom I am entrusted to serve. In this case, I am, but we all are, entrusted to serve the moms and dads, their children, their parents, so that when I or any doctor makes a recommendation to provide a life saving vaccine or treatment, they can rely upon CD guidance. If doctors do not have clear guidance or have a reason to distrust what’s coming out of the CDC, they cannot make informed decisions to protect their patients.
20:55 Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
I am focused on the fact that Dr. Monarez was the first CDC Director requiring Senate confirmation. We Republicans supported making the CDC director Senate-confirmed. It’s such an important position that we demanded a role in her or his choosing. And so part of our responsibility today is to ask ourselves, if someone is fired 29 days after every Republican votes for her, the Senate confirms her, the Secretary said in her swearing in that she has “unimpeachable scientific credentials,” and the President called her an incredible mother and dedicated public servant, What happened? Did we fail? Was there something we should have done differently?
33:45 Susan Monarez:
My name is Susan Monarez, and I am a microbiologist and immunologist. Exactly 12 weeks ago, in this same room, I testified that, if confirmed, I would lead the CDC to restore public trust, modernize public health infrastructure, and strengthen the agency’s core mission of protecting Americans from infectious diseases and emerging threats. I was honored to be nominated by President Trump and confirmed with the Senate support.
34:30 Susan Monarez:
My tenure as CDC director lasted 29 days. Since my removal, several explanations have been offered: that I told the secretary I would resign, that I was not aligned with the administrative administration priorities, or that I was untrustworthy. None of those reflect what actually happened.
37:10 Susan Monarez:
On the morning of August 25, Secretary Kennedy demanded two things of me that were inconsistent with my oath of office and the ethics required of a public official. He directed me to commit in advance to approving every ACIP recommendation, regardless of the scientific evidence. He also directed me to dismiss career officials responsible for vaccine policy without cause. He said, if I was unwilling to do both, I should resign. I responded that I could not pre-approve recommendations without reviewing the evidence, and I had no basis to fire scientific experts. He told me he had already spoken with the White House several times about having me removed.
40:00 Susan Monarez:
I told the Secretary that if he believed he could not trust me, he could fire me. The next day, I was told I still had my job, but the Secretary’s expectations remained, approval of ACIP recommendations and dismissal of career scientists. I would not commit to that, and I believe it is the true reason I was fired.
40:20 Susan Monarez:
Tomorrow, the reconstituted ACIP will meet. Its composition, has already raised concerns from the medical community. Based on what I observed during my tenure, there is a real risk that recommendations could be made restricting access to vaccines for children and others in need without rigorous scientific review. With no permanent CDC director in place, those recommendations could be adopted.
42:40 Debra Houry:
Three weeks ago, I made one of the hardest decisions of my career. I resigned from CDC. I come to you as a doctor, as a scientist, and a mom. For over a decade, I worked as an emergency physician treating patients, where I saw firsthand how illness and death devastate families and loved ones, and even more devastating when it’s preventable. That’s what led to my career in public health. I changed my focus from treating individual patients to protecting the nation. I served 10 years at CDC under six directors and four administrations. In each case, priorities shifted, but decisions were grounded in evidence, transparency, and consultation with the world’s best scientists. That has changed. I resigned because CDC leaders were reduced to rubber stamps, supporting policies not based in science, and putting American lives at risk. Secretary Kennedy censored CDC science, politicized its processes, and stripped leaders of independence. I could not in good conscience remain under those conditions.
44:40 Debra Houry:
We know vaccines save lives, yet all 17 voting members of ACIP, the committee that sets vaccine recommendations, were replaced with critics. Flu campaigns were halted despite 270 pediatric flu deaths last season, the highest non-pandemic total ever, with 90% of those children being under- or un-vaccinated. We also saw the highest number of measles cases in 30 years, with two children dying. Instead of promoting vaccines, the Secretary spread misinformation and promoted unproven treatments. CDC labs and data systems are our nation’s first line of defense against pandemics and bio threats, but those defenses are being weakened. Under the Secretary, global flu sample submissions have dropped by 60% and Covid samples by 70%, leaving us with far less visibility into what’s coming. At the same time, moving experts on birth defects and chronic disease out of CDC will fragment our response capacity. We learned during Zika and more recently with Oropouche that reproductive health expertise was essential in these complex infectious diseases causing birth defects. Due to the Secretary’s actions, our nation is on track to see drastic increases in preventable diseases and declines in health.
46:20 Debra Houry:
I first learned that the Secretary had changed our CDC Covid vaccine guidance on an X social media post. CDC scientists have still not seen the scientific data or justification for this change. That is not gold standard science. The Secretary’s office ordered the removal from our website of the CDC scientific document on thimerosal, an additive to vaccines that science has shown is not linked to autism, while allowing an unvetted presentation on thimerosal to happen at ACIP containing scientific assertions that were not assessed for data quality and bias. That kind of last minute alteration undermines confidence and the deliberations that follow, and is certainly not radical transparency.
50:05 Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
How many meetings were around the period of the 25th?
Susan Monarez:
We had three distinct meetings that day.
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
And what did he tell you to do?
Susan Monarez:
In the first meeting, he asked me to commit to firing scientists or resign. He asked me to pre-commit to signing off on each one of the forthcoming ACIP recommendations, regardless of whether or not there was scientific evidence.
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
And what were those recommendations? Did you have a foreshadowing of what they would be?
Susan Monarez:
I did not. We did not get into any substance.
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
He wanted to approve them.
Susan Monarez:
He just wanted blanket approval, and if I could not commit to approval of each and every one of the recommendations that would be forthcoming, I needed to resign. I did not resign, and that is when he told me he had already spoken to the White House about having me removed.
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
Did he ever communicate he was going to change the childhood vaccination schedule?
Susan Monarez:
Not until that very day, in that morning meeting, he said that the childhood vaccine schedule would be changing starting in September, and I needed to be on board with it.
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
Did he ever suggest that he was speaking for the President?
Susan Monarez:
In that morning meeting he did say that he had spoken to the President. He spoke to the President every day about changing the childhood vaccine schedule.
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
Okay, did Secretary Kennedy ask you to speak to anybody outside of HHS?
Susan Monarez:
He did. In the second meeting that day, he indicated that one of his colleagues or collaborators, I don’t know what the relationship is, was coming into town the following week, and he wanted me to meet with that person.
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
Who was that person?
Susan Monarez:
The person was named Aaron Siri.
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
Aaron Siri, is he the trial attorney who wanted to get rid of the polio vaccine, allegedly, and President Trump slapped him down and said he couldn’t do that? Is that the same Aaron Siri?
Susan Monarez:
I don’t know the second part of that, but I do know that there were public reports that he is the individual who had suggested getting rid of the polio vaccine.
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
Now, Secretary Kennedy told the Finance Committee that he did not ask you to pre-approve, but that you are biased against the new ACIP, and he just asked you to keep an open mind. Did he cite any data or science as relates to the potential ACIP recommendations to persuade you to support them?
Susan Monarez:
He did not have any data or science to point to. As a matter of fact, we got into an exchange where I had suggested that I would be open to changing childhood vaccine schedules if the evidence or science were supportive, and he responded that there was no science or evidence associated with the childhood vaccine schedule, and he elaborated that CDC had never collected the science or the data to make it available related to the to the safety and efficacy.
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
To be clear, he said there was not science or data, but that you still expected you to change the schedule?
Susan Monarez:
Correct.
53:20 Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
Dr. Houry, Dr. Monarez has just said the Secretary directed her to accept vaccine recommendations without seeing them, and for which there is no science. Related to tomorrow’s ACIP meeting, who decided what would be on the agenda?
Debra Houry:
So I don’t have great visibility into that. I know the senior advisor and HHS counselor worked with our staff and the designated federal official and proposed items.
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
Okay, and who is the senior counselor?
Debra Houry:
The senior advisor is Stuart Burns, and the HHS counselor is Reyn Archer.
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
And those are political appointees answerable to the secretary?
Debra Houry:
Yes.
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
Normally does the cabinet secretary or political staff set the agenda for a scientific meeting?
Debra Houry:
Not for the past decade I was at CDC.
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
So this is the first time that’s been the case.
Debra Houry:
Yes.
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
And in preparing materials for the meeting, were you told to disregard science or to enhance science, or what were you supposed to do?
Debra Houry:
For the last meeting we had developed —
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
I’m talking about this meeting coming up.
Debra Houry:
For this meeting, we didn’t have work groups other than one for Covid. So CDC scientists were being asked by ACIP to develop questions and recommendations. I did suggest additional questions that the Hepatitis B work group look at so that they could look at differences in age groups. The senior advisor was concerned that could bias moving away from a birth dose. I asked how asking questions and providing data could do bias if we didn’t have the answers yet.
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
You’re suggesting that they wanted to move away from the birth dose, but they were afraid that your data would say that they should retain it?
Debra Houry:
Correct.
56:40 Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT):
What is your concern? What are the long term implications for the well being of our kids and the future of our country if faith in vaccine science is undermined?
Susan Monarez:
I believe preventable diseases will return, and I believe that we will have our children harmed for things that we know they do not need to be harmed by: polio, measles, diphtheria, whooping cough. I worry about the ramifications for those children in illness and in death. I worry about our school systems. I worry about our medical institutions having to take care of sick kids that could have been prevented by effective and safe vaccines. I worry about the future of trust in public health.
58:10 Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT):
If trust in vaccines is diminished, if moms do not take their kids in to get vaccines, all the people don’t get vaccines, what will that mean in terms of our ability to save lives if, God forbid, another pandemic takes place?
Debra Houry:
So we’re already beginning to see that, as we’re seeing childhood vaccination rates decrease. For example, measles is down to about 92.8%. That leaves over 200,000 kids now at risk for measles, so we are at risk for measles outbreaks. And for the next type of pandemic, a novel pathogen, with some of the staff cuts we have faced, we have less ready responders. We have less visibility into global pathogens at this time as well.
1:00:00 Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY):
Does the Covid vaccine prevent transmission?
Susan Monarez:
The Covid vaccine can reduce viral load in individuals who are —
Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY):
Does it prevent transmission?
Susan Monarez:
When you have reduced viral load, you will have reduced transmission.
Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY):
But in other words, it doesn’t prevent transmission. You can still transmit the virus if you’ve had the vaccine. In fact, there’s been reduced ability to interfere with transmission over time. And what we found is the most recent one since Omicron is down around 16% reduction. If there is a reduction. Does the Covid vaccine reduce hospitalization for children under 18?
Susan Monarez:
It can.
Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY):
It doesn’t. The statistics are inconclusive, and the reason you can’t prove that it does is there’s so few people under 18 that go to the hospital. The numbers are extraordinarily small. There’s like 76 million kids under 18 in our country. 183 died, and a few thousand went to the hospital in 2020 and 2021, and since then, the numbers have dropped precipitously, and the issue needs to be discussed. But the covid vaccine is not reducing hospitalization. It’s not statistically significant. Does the covid vaccine reduce the rate of death for children under 18?
Susan Monarez:
It can.
Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY):
Once again, it can. That’s a ridiculous answer. No, it doesn’t, and there is no statistical evidence that it does reduce the death rate. These are statistics we’ve looked at it. When they approved it, they had this discussion at the vaccine committee that we’ve been talking about. During the discussion, they acknowledged that there was no proof of reduction in hospitalization or in death. So what they did is they said, What can we use to try to make people take this vaccine? They came up with this. They said that if we give you a Covid vaccine, you make antibodies. So really, the whole recommendation for having a Covid vaccine from six months up is not based on hospitalization data, not based on deaths. It’s based on whether you make antibodies or not. And what people fail to see from this is, I can inject you with a foreign protein every week and measure antibodies, you’ll make antibodies every time. It just means immunology work has nothing to do with whether you should get a vaccine every week. So when we’re discussing the science here, we have to discuss what is the science in favor of giving a vaccine to a six month old, and what are the benefits from that? And there is no benefit of hospitalization or death, and then what would the risks of the vaccine be? We have large population studies of the risks of the vaccine in younger people, and it turns out that you don’t see this as much if you look at the general population, but once you start isolating in by age group, which you have to do in Covid because there’s such a disparity among age groups, you find that there is a risk of myocarditis, a significant event. It’s somewhere between six and eight in 10,000 but that’s much greater than the risk of hospitalization or death, which are not even measurable because they’re so small. So you resisted firing people who have this idea that the Covid vaccine should be at six months. That’s what this is about. You didn’t resist firing the beautiful, the perfect, beautiful scientists that are career people and unobjective and unbiased. You wouldn’t fire the people who are saying that we have to vaccinate our kids at six months of age. That’s who you refuse to fire.
Susan Monarez:
So that assertion is not commensurate with the experience that I had with the individuals who are identified to be fired —
Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY):
Did any of the people you refused to fire believe that we should change the vaccine schedule and no longer force six month old kids to take it? Every one of them was adamant we should keep it at six months. Everybody’s alarmed. We’re gonna change the childhood routine. Well, we should. There is no medical reason. What is the medical reason to give a hepatitis B vaccine to a newborn whose mom has no hepatitis?
Susan Monarez:
So none of the discussion points that you just brought up were ever —
Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY):
That’s changing the childhood schedule.
Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT):
Let her answer.
Speaker 1
Regular order, regular order.
Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY):
You have your time, Bernie, I’ve got mine.
Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY):
Look, this is the debate over changing the childhood schedule. The hepatitis B vaccine on the schedule is given to newborns. What is the medical, scientific reason and proof for giving a newborn a hepatitis B vaccine, if the mom is hep B negative?
Susan Monarez:
I want to go back to the assertion associa —
Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY):
What is the medical reason for giving a hepatitis B vaccine to a newborn? See, everybody’s like blithely going along. We can’t change the childhood. You’re somehow terrible if you want to change the childhood, we should be discussing, what is the childhood vaccine schedule, and the burden should be on you. You want to make all the kids take this. The burden is upon you and the people you wouldn’t fire to prove to us that we need to give our six month old a covid vaccine and that we need to give our one day old a hepatitis B vaccine, that’s what the debate ought to be about. Not whether all vaccines are good, or whether we live in Alice in Wonderland.
Susan Monarez:
I actually agree with you, and I was open to the science. I just would not pre-commit to approving all the ACIP recommendations without the science.
Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY):
Untrue.
Unknown: Is the witness allowed to answer that question, or do I have to use my time?
Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY):
She answered. Do you have more to say, Dr Monarez?
Susan Monarez:
The last thing I wanted to say about those scientists. We had never discussed any of their thoughts, considerations.
Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY):
Who is we?
Susan Monarez:
Me and the scientists that I was being asked to dismiss. As far as I know, they had never said that they are pre-committed to maintaining any of the decisions that had been made. All of us had agreed that the science evolves and we need to see the data and the evidence to ensure that we are protecting our children.
Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY):
Okay.
1:06:30 Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA):
Dr. Houry, I wanted to ask you, how did you learn about CDC’s new Covid vaccination guidance in May?
Debra Houry:
The same as you, on social media.
Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA):
What was your title at CDC when that happened?
Debra Houry:
I was a chief medical officer of the agency.
Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA):
It’s unthinkable to me that the Chief Medical Officer at CDC was left in the dark and about such a consequential public health decision that affected real people. Dr Houry, how was this change in guidance supported by scientific evidence?
Debra Houry:
We have not seen the data yet. In fact, after the tweet came out, we asked for a written memo from HHS because I couldn’t implement guidance off of a tweet. The written memo didn’t say the same as the video. There was a difference between healthy versus all —
Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA):
You can’t provide guidance off of a tweet.
Debra Houry:
I didn’t think that was prudent. And then we did ask for the data to back it up, and we have not received the data to date.
1:07:45 Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA):
Dr. Monarez and Dr. Houry, I want to ask you both, are you aware of any scientific evidence to support changing the age of which children should get these vaccines that’s being considered by this advisory committee? Dr. Monarez?
Susan Monarez:
I am not. I was certainly open. If there were scientific data sets or evidence associated with anything that would help keep our children safe, I was open to seeing it. I have not seen that data.
Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA):
Dr. Houry?
Debra Houry:
Ditto, we’ve asked for the data and asked for the modeling to support any decision that is done.
Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA):
Are either of you aware of any scientific evidence to support changing eligibility for Covid vaccinations?
Susan Monarez:
I have not seen any evidence.
Debra Houry:
No.
1:09:35 Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA):
Would you feel confident telling parents they could trust the recommendations of the advisory committee that were made back in April, before they were fired?
Susan Monarez:
Yeah, I would say that the individuals that were participating in April had the commensurate skill sets and background to be able to evaluate the the decisions before them. The processes were regular in terms of using the evidence to recommend. There was working groups that substantiated the information. There was robust deliberation during ACIP meeting. I would say that it it comported to the standards where the Americans could trust them.
Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA):
Dr. Houry?
Debra Houry:
Agree, the data was presented and the committee was filled with experts with experience.
1:10:25 Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA):
The newly chosen ACIP members met in June, and they’re going to meet again tomorrow. Will you, either of you, feel confident telling parents they can now trust the ACIP recommendations that come out of this week’s meeting?
Susan Monarez:
I’m very nervous about it. I don’t know, they haven’t met yet. I know that the medical community has raised concerns about whether or not, again, they have the commensurate backgrounds to be able to understand the data and the evidence and to evaluate it appropriately. I haven’t prejudged. I don’t know what will happen, but I certainly will be watching.
Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA):
Dr. Houry?
Debra Houry:
I have significant concerns as the public hasn’t been able to weigh in. The general vote should have been posted two weeks ago, so the public knew what was being discussed other than high level things. There haven’t been work groups other than for Covid and, as of yesterday, the data hadn’t been posted yet, so it’s unclear to me what decisions are being made.
1:12:45 Sen. Susan Collins (R-ME):
Secretary Kennedy replaced every single member of the advisory committee. Did he consult with you about any of the replacements?
Susan Monarez:
No.
1:13:00 Sen. Susan Collins (R-ME):
When you met with him on August 25, you have testified that he asked you to approve the recommendations of the new members of the committee, regardless of what they were. Is that correct?
Susan Monarez:
That is correct.
Sen. Susan Collins (R-ME):
So Secretary Kennedy, in testimony before the Finance Committee, has denied asking you to do that. Is there any doubt? Could you describe the discussion that you had on that issue?
Susan Monarez:
Yeah, I’m happy to. The Secretary, in that morning meeting, was very upset, very animated, and he said, with regard to that particular topic, I have heard that you may not sign off on the forthcoming ACIP recommendations. And I said, I cannot sign off on something before I see the data and the evidence. And he said, and elaborated on this for for some period of time, that there is no data and evidence, there is no science, that CDC has never collected the data, the evidence and the science associated with the safety and efficacy of the vaccines, and that I needed to commit to signing off on each and every one of those recommendations. And if I could not commit to that, I needed to resign.
1:15:45 Sen. Susan Collins (R-ME):
Dr. Houry, did HHS’s response to the measles outbreak earlier this year differ from its response to other infectious disease outbreaks in your previous interactions with the department?
Debra Houry:
Yes, in several ways. First, I never briefed the Secretary, as did the Center Director who oversaw measles, never briefed the Secretary. In an outbreak response usually you would be briefing leadership. The second thing is, he said things like vaccines had fetal parts, and I had to send a note to our leadership team to correct that misinformation. We were also asked to include things like budesonide and chlorothalmiasin in our toolkits for physicians. And I couldn’t allow that, as there wasn’t evidence for that and would result in harm.
1:18:05 Sen. Tammy Baldwin (D-WI):
Dr. Monarez, did Secretary Kennedy ever give you instructions on how you should interact with members of Congress?
Susan Monarez:
He did. After the morning meeting, I became very concerned. I was alarmed that I would not be consistent with those areas that I had committed to this committee that I would do — transparency, integrity — and I had reached out to the committee to share my concerns. Secretary Kennedy became aware of that, and he was very concerned that I had spoken to members of Congress, and he told me I was never to do it again.
1:51:35 Sen. Maggie Hassan (D-NH):
Doctor, as you’ve shared today, Secretary Kennedy demanded that you blindly rubber stamp his future vaccine decisions. When you pushed back on Secretary Kennedy’s demands how did he react?
Susan Monarez:
He was very upset. The entire meeting was very tense. He was very upset throughout the entirety of our discussion, and it was not a productive exchange of information.
1:52:15 Sen. Maggie Hassan (D-NH):
What was the Secretary’s reaction when you raised the need to consult scientific evidence before making decisions?
Susan Monarez:
Yeah, this is when he stated that CDC had not collected the data or the science — there was no scientific evidence associated with these vaccines. He said that CDC had failed in its duties to be able to appropriately evaluate the safety, the efficacy, never had conductedcontrolled clinical trials, placebo controlled clinical trials associated with the vaccines. He made another set of assertions associated with CDC that were particularly pointed and particularly hurtful and disparaging. He called, in that context, CDC the most corrupt federal agency in the world. Emphasized that CD employees were horrible people. He had said that, yeah, I’m sorry. He said that CDC employees were killing children and they don’t care. He said that CDC employees were bought by the pharmaceutical industry. He said CDC forced people to wear masks and social distance like a dictatorship, and the one I think that hurt me the most was a particularly vivid phrase. He said, during the covid outbreak, CDC told hospitals to turn away sick covid patients until they had blue lips before allowing them to get treatment.
Sen. Maggie Hassan (D-NH):
And it is fair to say, in your view, that those statements are not true?
Susan Monarez:
Those statements are not true.
Sen. Maggie Hassan (D-NH):
Thank you.
2:04:00 Debra Houry:
And I would just say it was 500 rounds. It was 180 that hit the building. Each bullet was meant for a person, and each of my staff were very traumatized afterwards. I had staff that were covering their kids in the daycare parking lot. There were people that were out at the rideshare as bullets were passing over their head, I have many that won’t speak about vaccines now and removed their names off of papers. They don’t wish to present publicly anymore because they feel they were personally targeted because of misinformation.
2:15:45 Sen. John Hickenlooper (D-CO):
In your testimony, you mentioned the CDC has seen a 60% decrease in flu samples and a 70% decrease in Covid samples. That’s alarming. That’s striking to me. What’s that reduction attributed to?
Debra Houry:
So a lot of that is attributed to withdrawing from the World Health Organization. Many countries don’t view us as the same level of partner. That’s something that can be overcome, but it takes leadership to really proactively re-establish those partnerships so that we’re not flying blind, we know what pathogens are out there.
2:21:00 Sen. Ashley Moody (R-FL):
Have you coordinated with Dr. Houry or anyone else that you worked with surrounding your leaving?
Susan Monarez:
I did not coordinate with anyone surrounding my leaving. I was terminated abruptly.
Sen. Ashley Moody (R-FL):
So you had no advance plan to to write an op ed, do a public hearing? I noticed that you immediately called our chairman.
Susan Monarez:
I had committed during my confirmation process several elements, including integrity, transparency, working with Congress.
Sen. Ashley Moody (R-FL):
But you had no advance plan with any colleagues?
Susan Monarez:
I had no advance plan with any colleagues.
Sen. Ashley Moody (R-FL):
Dr. Houry, if there wasn’t an advance plan, did you tell a reporter, We agreed to do this together?
Debra Houry:
Myself, Dr. Jernigan, and Dr. Daskalakis.
Sen. Ashley Moody (R-FL):
Agreed to do this all together?
Debra Houry:
Once Dr. Monarez was being terminated, the three of us knew that we could not remain given our ethical concerns and commitment to scientific integrity.
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
I just want to make a brief comment as my name was invoked. As the Chairman of the committee with jurisdiction over the CDC that favorably reported Dr Monarez as the CDC Director, it is entirely appropriate for someone with oversight concerns to contact my office, or me, or frankly, any of us. Upon receiving outreach from Dr. Monarez, I contacted both the Secretary and the White House to inquire what was happening and to express concerns about what was alleged. As soon as the director was fired, the HELP Committee began reviewing the situation, as it is our responsibility, and any and all communications with the witnesses was conducted by HELP staff in coordination with attorneys.
Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT):
Mr. Chairman, may I comment on that, please?
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
Yes, sir.
Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT):
Very briefly, I find it rather astounding that anyone is concerned that government heads of agencies talk to the elected officials of the United States of America. That is what they are supposed to do. Thank you.
2:33:10 Debra Houry:
I’m the last, or I was the last, career left in the Office of the Director. I have no doubt that my role will be replaced by a political —
Sen. Lisa Murkowski (R-AK):
May I stop you there? You’re the last career. So then are you saying that everyone that is remaining is a political?
Debra Houry:
Everyone in the office of the director is a political, yes.
Sen. Lisa Murkowski (R-AK):
There must be somebody that is providing that career science then.
Debra Houry:
A level down, we do have center directors, although 80% are now acting because they’ve been fired, resigned or retired.
2:33:45 Sen. Lisa Murkowski (R-AK):
Dr. Monarez, were you ever directed to not speak to career officials? Was that a directive that you received?
Susan Monarez:
That was.
Sen. Lisa Murkowski (R-AK):
And when was that? When were you directed to not speak to career officials?
Susan Monarez:
Yeah, that transpired over the course of August 25 and the engagements with Secretary Kennedy, and that I was directed to only work with the political appointees that he had put in place at CDC, and not to speak or work with the career scientists.
2:48:25 Sen. Ed Markey (D-MA):
Dr. Houry, do you believe that a change to that recommendation on hepatitis B vaccine at the advisory committee meeting this week would be based on an objective, comprehensive review of data?
Debra Houry:
So if the vote is to change it to age four, then that would not be based on data.
Sen. Ed Markey (D-MA):
Do you agree with that, Dr. Monarez?
Susan Monarez:
I haven’t seen any evidence to suggest that that would be the appropriate thing to do.
2:49:30 Sen. Ed Markey (D-MA):
Would you want them to reconsider the decision, Doctor?
Debra Houry:
I would want them to keep it at birth. I think there’s a lot of moms that don’t know they have hepatitis that can then transmit it to their baby. And even if the mom is hepatitis B negative, we don’t know what the home situation is.
2:59:25 Sen. Andy Kim (D-NJ):
Dr. Monarez, I wanted to just start with you. You were talking about how you were directed to fire career officials. What was the plan, who would have replaced them?
Susan Monarez:
Yeah, part of what the Secretary told me in the discussion related to those career officials was a sequencing of firing the leadership, promoting their deputies. If the deputies did not do what I had wanted, I needed to fire them, promote the next group, and continue to do so until I got to an organization that was compliant with my demands.
Sen. Andy Kim (D-NJ):
So the plan was to literally just kind of keep firing until there was somebody in that position that was willing to go along with what Secretary Kennedy was asking? Is that right?
Susan Monarez:
That is what he communicated to me, yes.
Sen. Andy Kim (D-NJ):
I guess I wanted to just ask you, are you aware if this type of practice and this kind of order is given to other parts of HHS? FDA, NIH, any other parts?
Susan Monarez:
He had said, although I have no means to verify this, that others at FDA, NIH and CMS were engaging in this practice.
3:09:15 Sen. Angela Alsobrooks (D-MD):
I want to ask Dr. Houry very directly, do you believe that Secretary Kennedy is incompetent and dangerous to the American people’s health?
Debra Houry:
I always believe in optimism and hope, and I would say that was my hope when he started. I had read his books, and as a transition lead, I was prepared to welcome him. After seeing his Senate Finance testimony and the number of misstatements, seeing what he has asked our scientists to do and to compromise our integrity, and the children that have died under his watch, I think he should resign.
3:10:55 Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
I would now request unanimous consent to submit an article for the record. Dr Monarez has told us that Secretary Kennedy urged her to speak to Aaron Siri, and this article says, the title is “Anti-vaccine Group with Ties to RFK Jr Saw Another Windfall Last Year, Records Show,” and it points out that $6 million was paid to his law firm to pursue public records requests, et cetera, and $20 million at times past. Secretary Kennedy has been an advisor to this law firm in the past.
3:11:40 Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
Dr. Houry, you said that Stuart Burns said that CDC’s systematic review, on birth-dose hepatitis B was biased. Did he share any alternative evidence to support his views?
Debra Houry:
He had said that the questions we had posed could lead to bias. We had not developed a systematic review at that time.
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
And what did he ask you to do with the evidence you accumulated?
Debra Houry:
So he suggested 70 additional papers that had come from the vaccine compensation fund, including some that were in French and Indian.
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
That were what?
Debra Houry:
They were in other languages that we could not then incorporate into the systematic review. I explained, as did the Acting Center Director, that we have a systematic process we follow. The library was pulling the evidence for us, and we couldn’t speak to the data, as we didn’t have the data yet, and questions shouldn’t bias. Questions provide answers.
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
What happened with the review you did?
Debra Houry:
So it is underway. I don’t know if it was completed, because I left three weeks ago.
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
And what happened with review he did with references in Hindi, for example?
Debra Houry:
He didn’t do a review of hepatitis B. He sent 70 references for the scientists to include. I don’t know if they were included. I said if they had valid methods, they would be.
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
Do you know if Stuart was representing the Secretary’s viewpoint?
Debra Houry:
I believe he was, because he told me that the Secretary had suggested age four.
Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
Say that again.
Debra Houry:
He had said that the Secretary, as had an HHS counselor to me, suggested the Secretary wanted the birth dose moved.
3:13:30 Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
As I close, I’m going to speak as a liver doctor, a point of personal privilege to address the ACIP meeting scheduled for tomorrow. Folks know I’m a physician. As it turns out, I am a hepatologist, which is a liver specialist, and have published papers on liver disease, and I’ve seen people die from hepatitis. That was my practice of, how do you teach students how to avoid this, and how do you treat the patients that have it?
3:14:40 Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
One thing that reportedly is going to be discussed at the upcoming ACIP meeting is ending the recommendation for the birth dose of hepatitis B vaccine. Now, again, this was my practice for 20 years, before I entered politics. More than 90% of infants — let me start over. For those who say, Why should a child be vaccinated for a sexually transmitted disease when they’re at birth? The child passes through the birth canal and is exposed to the same secretions of one would otherwise, and that passage through the birth canal makes that child vulnerable to the virus being transmitted, not just hepatitis B. It can be HIV, it can be other things, but in terms of hepatitis B, what happens if that child is infected at birth, more than 90% of them develop chronic, lifelong infection. Now we’ll talk about the consequences of that in a second. Before 1991, as many as 20,000 babies were infected with hepatitis B in the United States of America, and that changed when the hepatitis B vaccine was approved for newborns. And by the way, as Dr. Monarez says, this doesn’t mandate, doesn’t say you can’t leave the hospital unless you get it. It just says that if the mother accepts, then the insurance company has to pay. It’s not mandated. It’s just like, Mama, if you think it’s a good idea, accept it. In the decade following approval of a birth dose of hepatitis B, newborn infection of hepatitis B reduced by 68%. That’s in the decade. So that’s up to 2001. Now fewer than 20 babies per year get hepatitis B from their mother. That is an accomplishment to make America healthy again, and we should stand up and salute the people that made that decision, because there’s people who would otherwise be dead if those mothers were not given that option to have their child vaccinated.
3:17:25 Sen. Bill Cassidy (R-LA):
If the recommendation goes away and a parent does want the vaccine, insurance will no longer cover it free of charge, she’ll be forced to pay out of pocket.
The President’s 2026 Health Care Agenda
Senate Finance Committee
September 4, 2025
Witness:
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., Secretary, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
Clips
1:05:45 Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.: As my father once said, progress is a nice word, a change is its motivator, and change has its enemies. That’s why we need new blood at CDC. That’s also why it’s imperative that we remove officials with conflicts of interest and catastrophically bad judgment and political agendas. We need unbiased, politics-free, transparent, evidence-based science in the public interest. Those are the guiding principles behind the changes at the CDC, and that is what you can expect all across our agency for the next three years.
1:13:15 Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR): Did you, in fact, do what Director Monarez said you did, which is tell her to just go along with vaccine recommendations, even if she didn’t think such recommendations aligned with scientific evidence?
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.: No, I did not.
Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR): That’s a yes or no, so you have an opportunity to call her a liar if you say that you didn’t do it, but I’d like to see you respond to this.
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.: No, I did not say that to her, and I never had a private meeting with her. There were witnesses to every meeting that we had, and all those witnesses will say I never said that.
Sen. Ron Wyden (D-OR): So she’s lying today to the American people in the Wall Street Journal?
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.: Yes, sir.
2:46:10 Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA): Did you tell the head of the CDC that if she refused to sign off on your changes to the childhood vaccine schedule, that she had to resign?
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.: No, I told her that she had to resign because I asked her, Are you a trustworthy person? And she said, No. If you had an employee who told you they weren’t trustworthy, would you ask them to resign, Senator?
Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA): So I’m sorry, but this is not what she has said publicly, she has —
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.: I’m not surprised about that.
Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA): So you’re saying she’s lying?
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.: Yes, every conversation I had with her, there were witnesses.
Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-MA): Let me get this straight. This is the same person that less than a month earlier, you stood next to her and described her as unimpeachable, and you had full confidence in her and that you had full confidence in her scientific credentials, and in a month, she became a liar?
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.: Yeah, we should ask her what changed.
2:47:45 Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT): I just want to pick up on Senator Warren’s point. Are you telling us that the former head of CDC went to you, you asked her, Are you a trustworthy person? And she said, No, I am not a trustworthy person?
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.: She didn’t say, No, I’m not a trustworthy person. She said, No.
Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT): You’re also repeating now that she is a liar, correct? What she wrote in the Wall Street Journal —
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.: She wrote that I fired her because she refused to sign on in advance for the ACIP Committee. No, that’s not accurate.
3:10:25 Sen. Ben Ray Luján (D-NM): Secretary Kennedy, Dr. Daskalakis, who recently resigned as Director of the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, his resignation letter stated he and his team were never allowed to brief you. I’m curious who you’re listening to, since it’s clear you’re not listening to qualified experts like Dr. Daskalakis. Can you give the committee the name of the person?
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.: I don’t consider Dr. Daskalakis —
Sen. Ben Ray Luján (D-NM): Secretary, the question that I have for you is, can you give the committee a name of who you’re getting briefed by?
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.: I’m getting briefed by all the time by CDC.
Sen. Ben Ray Luján (D-NM): Just a name.
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.: Dr. William Thompson is one name.
3:21:00 Sen. Rev. Raphael Warnock (D-GA): Did you demand that she fire career scientists or public experts at the CDC?
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.: Yes.
Sen. Rev. Raphael Warnock (D-GA): Did you demand that she accept the recommendations of your hand picked vaccine advisory panel without further review by career CDC scientists.
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.: No, I did not.
Sen. Rev. Raphael Warnock (D-GA): You didn’t ask for her commitment ahead of time that she would accept the recommendations from the advisory panel?
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.: What I asked her about is, she had made a statement that she was going to not sign on, and I wanted clarification about that.
Sen. Rev. Raphael Warnock (D-GA): Did you tell her to accept the the advisory panel’s recommendations?
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.: I told her I didn’t want her to have a rule that she’s not going to sign on to it.
Sen. Rev. Raphael Warnock (D-GA): Did you say that the CDC was “the most corrupt federal agency in the history of the world?”
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.: Not the history of the world, but definitely HHS. I did not say that, but I did say it’s the most corrupt agency at HHS, and maybe the government.
Sen. Rev. Raphael Warnock (D-GA): So you called the CDC corrupt. Did you say that CDC staff are “horrible people?”
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.: Horrible people?
Sen. Rev. Raphael Warnock (D-GA): Did you did you say that they’re killing children and they don’t care?
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.: No.
CDC Director Swearing In
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
August 6, 2025
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.:
I’m very happy to have Dr. Monarez aboard. She comes to us from ARPA-H. She’s a tech genius, and she’s going to drive AI and modernize CDC data systems, and we’re going to be able to provide first class information, gold standard science, to the American people. Susan is a expert in public health, and I’m confident that she will do everything that she can to restore the integrity of this agency.
Music
Tired of Being Lied To by David Ippolito
